Friday, July 24, 2009

[preferential voting] consider it, britain

This blog did run a post, in passing, on the last Australian election result, admittedly not hugely interesting to most readers and as I spoke yesterday, in conversation, of the system of Preferential Voting used downunder, it became apparent that Brits don't really understand how it operates.

The Brits know about First Past the Post and they are aware of Proportional Representation but this Preferential Voting seems a mystery.

The main problem with First Past the Post is that it encourages minority governments and makes small parties unimportant in the political landscape. So though the BNP, LPUK and UKIP may poll well, they are not going to take the seat, except in rare circumstances and therefore their only value is as a pressure group.

Preferential works as follows.

I've invented a card for a mythical constituency called Griddlesham and let's say that our voter doesn't like the major parties, voted them down the list and also placed the Monster Loonies last because they're too frivolous for our voter's tastes. I've left out the British smaller parties for the sake of the exercise _ I'm not the BBC, remember. Let's also not quibble over the names of the parties, whether they'd be on the card in reality or whether the names would be done that way or not.

So our man filled in his slip this way:

Right, so after the first round of votes have been counted, according to 1st preferences, the results are as follows:

Airley, W.M. ................8, 432
Barnes, G.S. .............. 18, 422
Farrier, N.L. ................2, 003
Long, G.K. .......................878
Roland, B.R. ........................2
Tennant, L.B. ..............3, 401
Vincent, T.L. ............. 19, 456
Informal ..........................682

TOTAL........................53, 276

Labour leads and now the lowest scoring candidate is dropped off the list and the papers of the 2 people who voted for the Loonies are now looked at for their 2nd preferences, which turned out to be for the Pensioners and the Free Parking, so the actual voting slips are placed on the piles of those parties' candidates, as if they were a 1st preference ... and the 2nd round begins.

After this, Free Parking is eliminated and all votes in the Free Parking candidate's pile are scrutinized for 2nd preferences and so it goes through the 3rd and subsequent rounds until, let's say, there are 3 candidates left:

Airley, W.M. ................8, 432
Barnes, G.S. ............... 21, 912
Vincent, T.L. ............. 22, 250
Informal ..........................682

Labour leads but now the LibDem will be eliminated and his preferences distributed. This is where it gets interesting. If the Lib Dems have a strong tradition of directing their preferences, then it will go the way the party wants but not all parties can control their supporters that much. Pundits in this hypothetical say that the Lib Dems will probably 65% direct preferences the Tories' way and 35% to Labour.

It happens that way and the final result is:

Barnes, G.S. ...............27, 393
Vincent, T.L. ............. 25, 201
Informal ..........................682

This was how the PM, John Howard lost his seat in the last Australian Federal Election. He was leading the vote but was pipped on preferences.

The good thing about Preferential is that the wishes of the smaller parties count for far more than in First Past the Post in that they have a direct bearing on the result and therefore need to be seriously considered in the run up to the election.

Not as fair as in Proportional Representation but fair to a goodish extent plus the results are usually known the same night plus it still returns one member per constituency, maintaining more directly representative government, as far as the electoral system goes at least.

The downside is its apparent complexity but it is not as complex in practice as it sounds and the result is usually known in each constituency within 4 to 12 hours. Some point to the unfairness - that if Howard had the most votes, he should have won. Against that, he did not have a majority - 50% plus 1 vote, whereas, under Preferential, those who did not vote for him on the first preference have their other preferences considered, once their candidate is eliminated.

So when the victor ends up with 50% plus 1, it is a majority of people who want him [or her].
.

16 comments:

  1. As far as I can see, Preferential Voting is the same as with the Single Transferable Vote (STV); if I'm wrong on that, or there are some subtle differences, I'd appreciate correction.

    James writes: "Not as fair as in Proportional Representation ..."

    I think that depends on who you want to be 'fair' to: the electorate or political parties.

    Proportional Representation takes away the right to vote for particular candidates, whether independents or members of political parties: it weakens the very concept of democratic representation by replacing it with only a choice of oligarchies.

    One of the very interesting, and good, things about STV is that it allows independent candidates and minor party candidates to have a better chance of success, by a combination (mainly) of being first or second choice of more voters.

    STV also does bad to mainstream parties (except strip them of their current unfair advantage). It allows each political party fielding more than one candidate, and without risking splitting their vote. So one could (for example) have a vote between a pro-EU Tory and an anti-EU Tory, or for a strongly environmentalist Labourite versus a weakly or anti-environmentalist Labourite. Such additional choice would be very interesting for the electorate, especially in constituencies with a standing majority for one of the main political parties.

    So, please don't confuse STV with Proportional Representation. IMHO one (STV) is a significant improvement in democracy and the other (PR) is a significant reduction in democracy.

    Best regards

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  2. That should read "STV also does NO bad to mainstream parties (except strip them of their current unfair advantage)."

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  3. "One of the very interesting, and good, things about STV is that it allows independent candidates and minor party candidates to have a better chance of success, by a combination (mainly) of being first or second choice of more voters."

    This is quite true but I think you put it more clearly than me, Nigel.

    "Proportional Representation takes away the right to vote for particular candidates, whether independents or members of political parties: it weakens the very concept of democratic representation by replacing it with only a choice of oligarchies."

    Yes, which is why Australia uses it for the Senate, at Federal level, where immediacy is not a prime consideration and would, in fact, duplicate the functions of the local rep, the Senate's function being to review legislation, of course.

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  4. The UK does NOT need "preferential voting" which we call the "Alternative Vote" and the USA calls "IRV". These are all STV in single-member electoral districts.

    What the UK needs for Parliament at Westmister is proportional representation by the single transferable vote (STV-PRR), known as "Quota Preferential Voting" in Australia and as "Ranked Choice Voting" in many parts of the USA.

    We need PR of all significant viewpoints among the voters AND we need local voter control over which candidates are elected to represent us. That's what STV-PR, and STV-PR alone, would give us.

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  5. Late to reply but did read this at the time, Edinburgh and thanks.

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  6. James good points- there are paradoxes though where if you have three policies running STV you can actually end up with the least popular policy. Wikipedia covers it here- I've always found it interesting partly because like you I can see the inherent advantages of the system (ultimately everyone's vote counts at some point in the final result- unlike today where effectively as you say if you vote for a minor party, your vote doesn't really count) but I thought I'd bring up the paradox as perhaps something to think about further... (I don't have my own answer at all to it and it may be that problems are endemic in any system)

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  7. In the end, we all want the fairest system and fortunately, it's not necessary to be gung ho here for our own pet scheme. We can work to get the best compromise.

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  8. Gracchi comments: "... there are paradoxes though where if you have three policies running STV you can actually end up with the least popular policy."

    The definition here, of "least popular policy" is of dubious merit. It clearly must not be the one with most votes for first preference, as we have with STV and with First Past the Post (FPTP). However, neither is it one with the least votes for first preference (which is the one first dropped by STV) - and which would be my definition of "least popular policy".

    Interestingly, with FPTP, a candidate can be elected that the majority of voters absolutely do not want. And one 'explanation' of the cause with FPTP is that that majority of voters cannot agree on who who is the best candidate, only who is the worst.

    A great many things in life are a compromise (though fortunately not all). STV gives a much better chance than FPTP of the whole electorate finding that compromise.

    Interestingly, from an information theory viewpoint, with a 3-candidate election for 1 post, with STV each voter can convey 2.58 bits of information (being log2(6), for the 6 possible orders of ranking), whereas with FPTP each voter is only allowed to convey 1.58 bits of information (being log2(3)). Likewise with all higher numbers of candidates and posts: STV allows voters more say than does FPTP.

    And, repeating myself from my earlier comment, Proportional Representation only really allows choice between political parties, not between individual candidates. With 2 or so candidates standing from each of the main political parties, STV allows combining of a primary election (USA-style) with the main vote, without the worry of vote-splitting. Also, noting the recent problems with MPs' expenses, do we really think the current system works well enough: not just party leaders' monkeys (rather than the electors' men or women), but monkeys with snouts!

    Best regards

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  9. Gracchi, fortunately we in the UK have little interest in single-winner single-office applications of STV. We want STV-PR, i.e. electing several members together from multi-member electoral districts. We want that, and only that, because that is only way to obtain a properly representative "representative assembly", be that a city council or Parliament at Westminster. Then it is likely that all three of the "views" would be represented.

    Nigel Sedwick, should recognise that STV-PR (i.e. STV in multi-member electoral districts) IS a system of proportional representation. It is true that far more countries use PR voting systems (mainly party list) that are not STV, but that does not in any way exclude STV-PR from the PR class of voting systems.

    Similarly, "PR" is NOT only about choice among parties. That is one version of PR (the most common). But as we can see from STV-PR, "PR" can equally be about proportional representation of what the voters want (as expressed by their responses to the candidates who have offered themselves for election).

    With STV-PR, if the voters want PR of the political parties, and vote accordingly, that is what they will get. But if the voters want PR of something other than party, they can get that instead, or as well.

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  10. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  11. No, James, not "Oooo. Ouch. :)", but cheap personal abuse that does not take the discussion one step further. How very sad.

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  12. Have to zip off now but will probably edit William's comment early evening.

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  13. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

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  14. William didn't get the chance to respond to my editing and if he wishes, I'll delete it altogether. I've removed only the parts which were directed to the individual.

    This comment fitted above my Oooo Ouch comment, for those trying to follow this thread.

    William Gruff wrote:

    FPP is perfect for our needs. All we need to do is militate against the parties and vest control of the member in the constituency. Reforming the expenses system and abolishing the whips are just the start.

    It's typical of [the] verbose to assert that what suits a handful of impecunious windbags north of the border suits those south of it who pay their subsidies.

    You can order your parish affairs as you will Edinburgh, provided always that you are prepared to pay for them, but do not presume to tell the world what we in England want from the Parliament your compatriots at Westminster refuse to allow us.

    As an aside, and apropos of voters' choices and PR: Have you forgotten that your countrymen and women had so much difficulty understanding the ballot papers at the last round of elections in your country that more than one hundred thousand had to be discounted?

    If you insist on presuming to speak for the 'U'K and what its people want then be honest enough to say that what most of us want is to see the back of the burden that is Sc*tland and the freedom to carry on as we did before we were saddled with it.

    FPP will do for us.

    I hope this leaves the substance of the comment as it was.

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  15. Sigh. Now, inadvertently, I have to edit yours, Edinburgh. You essentially said:

    James, please don't waste your time, certainly not on my account.

    [The rest I edited out.]

    Boys, I have to bring this thread to a close. Call it weak but I'm a gonna dooit, boys. :)

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