Thursday, August 02, 2007

[chivalry] and the hegemony of feminism

Most people know Michael Bucci's list of chivalrous acts which men should indulge in and I'm right behind the idea. Men should observe good manners and so should women.

Linda Lichter is far more hardline about chivalry:

[Writing of the Titanic] I never had the courage before to openly admire those men or envy the women they saved. At least a decade before the siege of political correctness, I was silenced by the unconscious but relentless intimidation of female friends and colleagues who are educated, self-sufficient, and eager consumers of the latest feminist books.

I am supposed to owe the authors of those books unqualified gratitude for all the hard-won rights the Titanic women never enjoyed.

I would add another [thing here]: that emotional and physical esteem for women is central, not tangential, to manhood. The British statesman Lord Chesterfield, a favorite source of Victorian etiquette writers, believed everyday deference was due to all women because it provided their only shield against men's superior physical strength.

He added, "no provocation whatsoever can justify any man in not being civil to every woman; and the greatest man would justly be reckoned a brute if he were not civil to the meanest woman."

This hits the nail on the head as far as I'm concerned and is central to what chivalry means to me. Though men and women are the same - i.e. we're both human but in different forms - and though there are good and bad on both sides, chivalry recognizes "womanhood" as something to be revered and makes no distinction. You're a bad woman? You'll still be treated courteously by chivalry. It's a safety net, a catch-all and chances are that the person who is chivalrous will be this way with men as well.

Blogger Kelly Mac [and I admit she is vehemently anti-feminist] is reflecting on the early years of feminism:

Namely, where were all the "good" women when feminism started? Why didn't the women who knew they were not being abused do something to stop the misinformation that spread like wildfire? Aren't these women just as deserving of men's contempt as the hardcore feminists who started it all?

Ruth Malhotra gets down to specifics:

The notion of victimhood, that “women are oppressed and exploited,” evokes strong anti-male sentiment.

Many influential feminists demonstrate extreme animosity towards marriage and family life, even likening the institution of marriage to that prostitution.

In Feminism: An Agenda, radical feminist author Andrea Dworkin declared that the home was a dangerous place stating, “Like prostitution, marriage is an institution that is extremely oppressive and dangerous for women.”

The feminist agenda is offensive to women. With Eve Ensler and her contemporary cheerleaders in the feminist movement, initiatives such as the "Vagina Monologues" have become a central part of Women’s Awareness Month programming on campuses around the country.

The "Vagina Monologues," often promoted as a wonderfully inspiring event to empower women, is, in reality, nothing more than an atrociously written anti-male tirade, portraying women as pathetic sexual objects who will forever be victims. Such programs are not only blatantly offensive towards women but are vile and vulgar.

Elizabeth Fox-Genovese sees it this way:

It has not been easy to acknowledge that feminism has promoted the unraveling of the most binding and important social bonds. Not easy, but unavoidable. Like countless other women who cherish improvement in the situation of women in the United States and throughout the world, I was initially quick to embrace feminism as the best way to secure our "rights" and our dignity as persons. Like countless others, I was seriously misled.

In practice, the sexual liberation of women has realized men's most predatory sexual fantasies. As women shook themselves free from the norms and conventions of sexual conduct, men did the same.

There can be no doubt that women's situation has demanded improvement -- and continues to do so throughout much of the world. But the emphasis upon individual rights at the expense of mutual responsibility and service is not the way to secure it.

Worse, it is destroying the fabric of our society as a whole because it is severing the most fundamental social bonds. Binding ties constrain women, but they constrain men as well. A Danielle Crittenden has noted, the family "has never been about the promotion of rights but the surrender of them -- by both the man and the woman".

Kelly Mac agrees:

It's about the fact that dating today has become nothing but a series of pick-ups and one-night-stands (thank you sexual revolution).

It's the new vulgarity in young women, societally enforced, which upsets me. I don't know if they are trying to shock [and girls are emotionally maturing much later these days, babies or no babies]; it's the lack of graciousness in John Edwards two harpies, for example [here's one of their political comments, courtesy of Michelle Malkin]; it's the desire to be some sort of hard nut hoe for the boys - who knows?

Seriously - there's some sort of paranoid mania going down here where any sort of respect between men and women doesn't get a chance to breathe, where bile and spite constitute debate and the desire of the ordinary person for a normal relationship is mocked and derided.

What's wrong with revering a woman to the point you can't live without her and want to marry her, to have children with her, to do what comes naturally vis a vis protective instincts, without dominating one another, without constantly going on about "rights"? What's wrong with working in tandem and actually enjoying one another? Why does it have to be outside marriage?

What's wrong with normality?

10 comments:

  1. James, can't you see that that very perspective creates a double standard.
    We see women as something we must treat differently, thus it upholds differential treatment.
    Most of that is supported by the tacit idea that women need to be protected by men.

    Men need protecting from predatory sexual men, by-er-men.

    It's just another way of controlling female sexuality.

    Men feel it has to be protected, thus it becomes a commodity to be bought and sold.

    Prostition exists for the simple reason that women atre forced to ration thie sexuality to gain male approval.

    Therefore those who don't mind flouting that taboo, can sell it as a commodity.

    Women will only be free when they free free themselves from male judgements on their sexuality.

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  2. CBI: It's hard to follow the logic that goes from chivalry and good manners to controlling female sexuality.

    Congratulations on being able to bend quite that way.

    I, for one, will always treat a lady (be she young, old, ugly, whatever) with the respect I think she deserves until such time as she makes me take it away. If that is by holding the door, looking out for her, helping her, whatever, that is what I will do.

    I have never tried to control any females' sexuality, I have tried to get them to expand it a few times (successfully a lot heh) but control? That's more smoke than Britain has banned.

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  3. What most women want is equality of opportunity, never to be told that you can't do that because you are a woman (aside from physical limitations). We don't want to be discriminated against for our gender nor paid less than our male colleagues or less for equivalent work.

    Yes I've been a feminist all my life by those standards and luckily in a profession where those rights were taken for granted because they had been achieved. This hasn't always been so nor is it so in every field.

    Men and women should respect each other, be chivalrous to each other. This is just good manners. I will open the door for a male who is laden with parcels or hold the door for the male behind me. Why do we always get hung up on door opening as if it is really important when other issues are so much more?

    I'm not going to touch the sexuality issue except to say that if women allow themselves to be oppressed sexually it is often because they have low self esteem, possibly given to them by men. Why do you so seldom see men with low self esteem?

    In the feminist movement there have always been strident extremists. Most feminists ignore them and get on with breaking down any barriers in a more constructive manner. Not that being extreme doesn't sometimes bring attention to the problem which is a good thing, but so often it turns off people who have the power to effect change.

    Let's see if any other female weighs in. I think you need a younger one than me.
    regards
    jmb

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  4. "James, can't you see that that very perspective creates a double standard."

    Certainly. The double standard is that one treats the woman with respect, irrespective of who she is or what she's done. One then goes about treating men with the same respect. As I stated in the post, very often the two follow on from one another.

    "I, for one, will always treat a lady (be she young, old, ugly, whatever) with the respect I think she deserves until such time as she makes me take it away."

    "Until" is the operative word. If one throws out "until" and has a blanket policy of showing both deference and respect, no matter how far one has been slighted, that makes us more of a man. This was the JC principle.

    "Most feminists ignore them [strident feminists] and get on with breaking down any barriers in a more constructive manner."

    Even in these words are the seeds of doom. "Get on with breaking down". What about getting on with not caring a toss about rights and just enjoying the other sex, confident that in a personal way, you are being respected and deferred to on the strength of what you say and how you act [plus your outward attractiveness], rather than defending some "right"?

    "Why do we always get hung up on door opening as if it is really important when other issues are so much more?"

    Door opening is a statement. It says that not only does the man assume a protective role but that the woman allows it [for this moment], appreciates it and knows she'll be treated with respect and that more important word - "deference" to her opinion. It's about [in a modern context] a woman sayng "Hey, I'm confident enough in myself to allow this."

    "What most women want is equality of opportunity, never to be told that you can't do that because you are a woman."

    And if a man does tell you that, you just move on to another man. It's a market economy and if he's missing out on the girls, he'll one day learn why or not. But "fighting for rights" only demeans oneself and admits that there is a gulf.

    "I'm not going to touch the sexuality issue except to say that if women allow themselves to be oppressed sexually it is often because they have low self esteem."

    Precisely. It is the low self-esteem they allow themselves which causes the problems. Phil McGraw said that people treat you as you train them to do. It's really true. I'm running a post on this now, people.

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  5. Well I can see you have the man's point of view because you have never been told "men can't do that or men don't do that".

    Defending rights, or actually obtaining them, to my mind is a societal issue, not something between the sexes on an individual basis. As a woman I would never bother with a man who didn't respect me and my opinions and actions. Then I would move on assuredly. But if the majority of men (society) are like that then we must seek to change the majority(society).

    Door opening never fails to appear in these discussions. As I said, yes, you can open the door for me as a woman and I will accept it and appreciate it. Can you accept that I might open the door for you if it is more practical that way?
    By the way if you open the door for me that doesn't mean that you show respect for me nor defer to my opinion. It just means your mother brought you up well and you paid attention.

    You say women allow low self esteem as if it a choice. It is usually forced upon their psyche in their childhood, perhaps by a parent, father even or some male in an early relationship.

    Dr Phil eh. You are bringing in the big guns, James.

    I'll look forward to the post, maybe.
    regards
    jmb

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  6. Crushed has a good argument but its a philosophical point and not necessarily a useful one. The double standard often works in favour of women too and party the waning of feminism is simply that many women find that favour advantageous.

    Its a quid pro quo.

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  7. I disagree with Crushed on nearly every point.Women who have respect for their bodies and see sex as a special way of expressing genuine feelings are not being oppressed. Your views seem to indicate male rights to women's bodies , as if that is their sole worth,which is the exact male oppression and degradation you claim to abhor.
    Prostitution exists, and is often the sad drip down effect of women's oppression, poverty, lack of life choices, drug / alcohol dependancies, that force women to make money by whichever means are at their disposal.
    Any man who partakes of prostitution is actually "buying" another human being and creating a market for, and exploiting human suffering leading to further oppression and degradation of a fellow human being and their soul.
    Why shouldn't men feel protective of women? Women feel protective to men when they nurture and feed them, care for them when ill and want to ensure their well being.
    You make male judgements on women's sexuality by that post alone, assuming women who are not "flouting their sexuality" are frigid or dysfunctional.
    The only judgement I am concerned with when it comes to my sexuality is MINE.and I am no prude but I am not here for the sole benefit of a man's libido. What do you think your hands are for?

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  8. Sorry. Missed this one. There's nothing wrong with "normality" at all but what is it? No one knows what's going on in a relationship except the 2 people involved and even they might not be sure at times. Many marriages that seem happy to others are not. It's fine to love within marriage. If you don't want to marry, that's fine too as long as you hurt no one else. As I said on your other post regarding this matter, we ALL need protection at times, men as well as women. I wish we could just accept that within each other. If you love someone, surely you want to look after them and fight the world for them if you have to. I love being treated chivalroudly and I love men who bring out the giggly, girly creature in me but that does not mean want to be treated like an idiot. I feel sorry for a lot of nice men because it must be hell trying to figure out what to do. Do you follow "The Archers" James? There's a good debate on the Radio 4 Woman's Hour website as to whether a wife who has taken on her husband's love child in the programme is or is not a "doormat", has done it to save her marriage and whether the marriage is just a meal ticket for her anyway.

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  9. What most women want is equality of opportunity, never to be told that you can't do that because you are a woman (aside from physical limitations). We don't want to be discriminated against for our gender nor paid less than our male colleagues or less for equivalent work.


    No. Wrong. What most women, i.e. feminists, want is equality of outcome, no matter how much you must disadvantage men to do it. We are not discriminated against for our gender. We are not paid less for equivalent work.

    I used to believe those things, because they had been told to me, and with authority. But then I realized that I had never actually seen it, or known anyone who had actually seen it. Think about that.

    Men and women are biologically different - gender is NOT a social construct. Honestly, that's among the most ridiculous things I've ever heard - gender being a social construct. We evolved differently because that was the most efficient way to survive. It amuses me that feminists say we're the same when it benefits women, and say we're different when it doesn't. You can't have it both ways, ladies.

    Men naturally want to protect and care for us. And we naturally want to be cherished and needed, and, believe it or not, we want to make them happy. Do you ever wonder why women are so freaking unhappy these days? Because we're supposed to not be women.

    That's just sick.

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  10. Kelly Mac - I'm in great danger of falling in love with you.

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